Topic for consideration.... Discuss!

[kevinw]

I bought my 2000 6 years ago. As some will know, at the time, I was looking for a 2.5PI to match my TR6 (glutton for punishment that I am). I knew what TR prices were like, but didn't have much idea on prices for PI saloons. My expectation was that for a running car in good, but not concours condition, I would have to pay around £5000 - £6000. More research quickly revealed that this was, at the time, above even the price of a concours car and I was amazed at just how much car could be bought for such small amounts of money.

Not being particularly gifted in the car mending area (in all honesty, I'm pretty useless), I have spent a small fortune in getting the car as close to perfection as I want it to be whilst retaining the originality of the car. I joined the forum and then the Register before I bought my car and the rest, as they say, is history.

So, the point of this posting: I drop in and out of the Forum from time to time and often note other cars for sale. Almost always, there is a comment to the effect that "it isn't worth that much" . The "that much" amount is always less than the cost of a comprehensive engine and suspension rebuild by professionals (and you can work out how I know that little fact!)

Then we get other comments regularly commenting on the low values of our cars. Is there a connection? I think there is. If we don't value our cars, we can be quite sure no one else will. Why is a mark 2 Jaguar worth so much more? Granted, it has a larger and more powerful engine, but they rust and rot just as ferociously, probably more so. Even the most humble Ford from the same period is worth more than the top of the range Triumph and in its day, which was the car you would aspire to? And which was the car that defined and created the concept of the performance "executive car" - the segment now occupied by BMW and Audi? When changing a company car once, I was offered the usual "choice" of a Cortina, Cavalier, Marina or Allegro . I asked if I might perhaps have a Dolomite and was told very clearly that I was not a senior manager! I had the "Dagenham Dustbin". When was the last time you saw a mark 4 'tina?

So my thought for the day is that we should actively talk up the merits of our cars, why they are desirable and why people should be prepared to pay a good price to enjoy luxury classic motoring.

This is just my personal view - nothing to do with being a club Director or the Editor.

Kevin

[englishbull]

Very valid point Kevin.....................

I for some time now felt that "our" cars are undervalued for what they have to offer.................

As you rightly say............... you have to sit and weigh the pro's and cons up about buying a car that needs restoration work ( costly and even more so with panels being so scarce) or pay more for one that requires no work or very minimal.

As a guide, I have just put a MK1 PI back on the road after being off for 13 years and it required some restoration work and was carried out by a freind in his spare time. Although the restoration work required was not to concors ( never wanted it to be as was on a budget) as I just wanted the car back on the road to enjoy and drive it still cost me near to 3k (inc car purchase) and that was cheap IMO. The car as had new front wing, rear outer arches, inner arch repairs to front and back, minor front floorwell repairs and of course the usual "full" cills and then painted where needed and not a full respray.
So my conclusion................ buy what your pocket can afford and go for the best car your pocket will allow at the time............. same old same.......... " you get what you pay for".... However, if can afford full or part resto and that allows another of our cars to saved then do so!.


PS Kevin....................this brings me to ask the ?.....................when I have time would you like me to send write up and pics of forementioned car?.

Lee

[christopherhenry]

Normally in my day to day business I'm involved in the collectables industry so, I know a bit about values, perceived values, demand, supply and all that.

Like with any commodity where there are a finite number available, there are general factors that apply to Triumph cars, too. I think probably the reason that Triumph saloons (not so much the sportscars) are 'cheap' is entirely down to demand. They are certainly well-made cars for their era, comparible to most other cars of the time and they certainly all rot away at the same speed, but I suspect there is less demand for a Triumph saloon (in whatever condition) that there is for an XJ6 or even a Ford Cortina of the same age. Triumphs have a strong devoted following, but not as strong as Jaguar (because of the perceived prestige) or even Ford (because more people's dad's had one)!

Just as for coins in this globalised world, the international scene is a big factor too. British cars that were popular in the USA tend to still be popular in the USA and elsewhere and that means that international demand is high. TR's and Jags etc still go back and forth across the Atlantic all day long. The poor old 2000 series never got a foot hold over there, or in any other country for that matter (apart from perhaps ever so slightly in Aus and NZ) and as a result the 2000 series is almost exclusively a car for British enthusiasts. The demand has always been low and nothing will change that. I could sell a nice Mk2 Jag to umteen Chinamen, Japanese gentleman, Shieks, Afican dictators, South American drugs barons, Russian oligarchs etc etc. With a nice Mk2 2000 I'm limited to my mates down the pub and ebay tyrekickers - and none of them would want to pay more than a grand!

That's how it is, that how it's always been and it's not going to change, simply because history can't be changed. Sad but true.

Bigging up and spreading the word about our beloved 2000's may help a little and over time I'm sure values will increase, however it's likely that as the number available drops, so will the demand. They will always be undervalued

Just a few of my thoughts.

[Mike Stevens]

'Value' is only what someone else is prepared to pay and as stated above, if there is little demand then the 'value' will stay low. Having said that, I believe that 'values' have gone up in the last few years. Maybe due to inflation, but also maybe due to the increasing scarcity of our cars. After all, there are some being scrapped every year, and they sure aren't making any new ones!

So, why does a Jaguar Mk2 seem to have a higher value? I think it's just down to perception. if you look at the later XJ6 cars, up to 1997, they don't (yet!) have this perception and you can pick up a very tidy usable car for the same price as a T2000 or probably even less. Kevin will realise how I know!

Why do Fords seem to have a higher value? That one I don't know. Maybe due to the racing pedigree (Lotus Cortinas etc) but again, more to do with nostalgia as there were more Fords around in 'our' youth than 2000s. I'm not sure about the "My dad had a Ford" though. In my experience at shows, we used to get a lot of visitors say "my Dad used to have one of those". Now we seem to get "My Grandad used to have one of those"! Sadly a sign of the times.

Just my 4p worth. Used to be 2p but with inflation....

Cheers,
Mike.

[CAR]

I don't think that rarity pushes prices up, look how much VW type2 (campers etc) vehicles sell for and yet there are loads around still, it's the same with mk2 Jaguars even in comparison to their Daimler v8 cousins.

I think there is a certain link to age and the car's value though, Mike's late XJ will rise in value once it gets to a certain age, it's almost inevitable.

Certain vehicles seem to have gone through a period of worthlessness due to a lack of relaibility or an overly fragile or complicated reputation. Stags are an example of this with TV8 engined examples being seen as much less desirable than a Rover or Ford engined car. This has all but reversed now. PIs have probably gone through this a bit with regards to the injection/carb debate.

VED on later mk2s does I believe have a detrimental effect on their values along with the way they seem to rust more easily than the earlier cars.

I don't have the answers but perhaps some of the reasons.....

Colin

[christopherhenry]

I'm showing my age aren't I and I'm 'only' 34! My dad had a Triumph saloon (actually, so did Granddad) but for the 20-somethings I suspect it is mostly just the Granddads nowadays. How time flies.

And that's right, 'value' is only what someone is willing to pay for something. XJ40s, X300s and X308s are indeed peanuts at the moment, and I think that's probably because there are so many of them around, especially X300s. Demand for them is fairly low because they are no longer new, can be expensive to maintain properly and are quite a few years from classic status. Not to mention the petrol prices these days making big engined cars look like dinosaurs. They'll never be as popular/valuable as Series III's. Nice cars though, I've had at least one of each.

Triumph saloons are not a great investment and they never will be! That's fine though, we're not in it for the money are we.

We're one-man musuem curators, keeping our mobile exhibits alive and well, for the sake of posterity, for the feeling, for the glory, for the pride, for the desire to not be like all the rest! Triumphitariat of the world, unite!

I think I've been in Eastern Germany too long.

P.S. CRAJ you're right about ratity - much more important is demand. People seem to really want and be willing to pay big money for VW campers of a certain ilk.

[Clifford Pope]

We don't want them to shoot up in value, do we? Just go up enough to support a spares industry so that we can keep on using them.

If I had a slightly valuable painting I'd hang it on my wall and enjoy it. But if Antiques Roadshow told me it was worth a million then I couldn't afford to insure it, and I'd have to keep it locked in a vault.

What's the point in having a car that's worth so much it gets stolen and smuggled out of the country?
If you need an imobiliser then it's over-priced.

[Alec]

Hello all,

one thing that affects value is whether the car in question was successful in motor sport, those that were are more sought after, a good example being the Mk 1 Cortina Lotus as discussed in another thread quite recently. (I know that particular car is an exception).
The Jaguar Mk2 was very successful in it's day on the race track, having said that there is a big difference in Mk2 values, a disc wheel automatic 2.4 is worth a fraction of a manual overdrive 3.8 on wire wheels given similar condition. It is also a more luxurious car and with the famous XK engine, and is far more expensive to restore, a new wing for example is about £1500.00, and that's true of most parts compared to our Triumphs.

Alec

[red2000chris]

well.... i havent got as much knowhow about triumphs as most of you and ive only had mine for 1 year, BUT.....for the size of car, size of engine, economy and spec etc, they are the best you can get, not to mention they are the best looking car for its era and size (i think so anyway) and they are very good value i think aswell.
when i had to sell my lotus cos the kids didnt fit i made a list of all the family size 70s cars that were out there; rover p6, mk1 granny, s type jag, mk3 cortina,saab 99, the list went on.
triumph 2000 series ticked all boxes with regards to economy, ease of maintenance, parts prices, are they cool in the summer months as no aircon. they are a great car. i think they do what they do excellently.

thats enough for me.

[Mike Stevens]

Mike's late XJ will rise in value once it gets to a certain age, it's almost inevitable

I do hope so Colin. I've had it now nearly 8 years and (touch wood) very little has gone wrong. Am I now going to regret saying that?

There is no comparison with the PI. It's quieter, more comfortable, easier to drive, more powerful and I suspect a good one would be cheaper to buy than an equivalent 2000/PI etc. However, I don't have such a smile as I do when driving the PI! And I've just taxed the Stag for the summer (hopefully the last time I'll have to pay for it) so there should be more summer smiles coming on!

Cheers,
Mike.